General Engine Dysfunction

Faults and Technical chat for the Citroen C4 Cactus
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thetapeworm
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:41 pm

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Screen shot from FAP Lite showing supposed additive levels between the end of April and today.

I put 5L in at the end of last year but I'm unsure what normal consumption rates are, it's using some though apparently.

Oddly the urea warning light came on this morning with the associated 1500 mile message on screen so something is happening, somewhere.

Edit: 10L of AdBlue just added so it was definitely in need of some.

FAP lite AdBlue capacity levels didn't update though and I know it pulls this from the levels the ECU is reading, the Urea light and associated warning went off so the car knew...

It had a 3 year service last month and I thought that would include AdBlue so something else for me to check.

I spoke to a local diagnostics / mapping chap who, quite honestly, said he'd rather not get involved based on previous experience of similar issues on Citroëns :lol:

And still not 30k on the clock.

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VinceMarsters
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by VinceMarsters » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:44 pm

thetapeworm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:41 pm
It had a 3 year service last month and I thought that would include AdBlue so something else for me to check.
My experience is that AdBlue top ups are not part of routine servicing unless you ask for it (and at around £40+ for it to be done in the service it is also expensive). My local dealer always asks if I want it done or not when I book it in.

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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:44 pm

VinceMarsters wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:44 pm
thetapeworm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:41 pm
It had a 3 year service last month and I thought that would include AdBlue so something else for me to check.
My experience is that AdBlue top ups are not part of routine servicing unless you ask for it (and at around £40+ for it to be done in the service it is also expensive). My local dealer always asks if I want it done or not when I book it in.
Cheers, that seems to be the same policy my independent has, I see Citroen also do it as an extra for £19.99 for a 10L fill.

I managed to find a decent screw-on nipple and tubing to get the 10L in, it's not in the nicest place to top up in the Cactus, I know they are made to a budget but I'd gladly have paid £100 more for the car to have a filler neck in a nice location :)


On the error code front I've diverted back on to the filler cap sensor again, probably incorrectly, as it first happened when my wife refueled... the only issue being I can't see if the Cactus has a cap sensor :lol:
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by routemaster1 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:41 am

I still think there is confusion here. The sensor in the cap is nothing to do with the Adblue system, it is to do with charging EOLYS fluid to the fuel tank. I'm sorry to say that if you are using too little Adblue that your issue is with the Adblue pump' which is a well-known issue. I still suspect you will need a new Adblue tank.

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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:33 am

routemaster1 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:41 am
I still think there is confusion here. The sensor in the cap is nothing to do with the Adblue system, it is to do with charging EOLYS fluid to the fuel tank. I'm sorry to say that if you are using too little Adblue that your issue is with the Adblue pump' which is a well-known issue. I still suspect you will need a new Adblue tank.
Thanks.

I went down the cap path because the issue started immediately after a refuel, I just wanted to rule this out - someone has tested their car with no cap on for me (like I already did) and found it didn't throw up any messages so a dead end I've stopped chasing now :)

As far as AdBlue consumption goes it's using it and seemingly at a reasonable rate, FAP just isn't showing it correctly for some reason, when I put 10L in recently the readings in FAP never changed but the car knew it was there and turned off the Urea light and the message on screen about needing a refill. I haven't rechecked with FAP since but 24 hours later it still hadn't updated AdBlue levels when connected.

I've read about the pump issues and the need to replace the whole tank as it's an integral part of it (stupidly), I just can't get my head around anything like this failing at 28k and given it's still using AdBlue I still hold on to the hope that it's a sensor.

Ultimately, given my independent diagnostics company refuse to look at any more Citroens, I'm going to have to suck it up and go to the main dealer, I just want to avoid their "fix by replacing the entire system" methods, seems impossible though.
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm

Just to add, I plugged the reader and opened up FAP again last night, the AdBlue levels being reported still haven't moved despite me having put the 10L some time ago.

Not sure if that's a FAP issue or that the sensor is goosed but as mentioned above it certainly knew when I'd filled up again after the warning it was getting low.
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by routemaster1 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:35 pm

thetapeworm wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm
Just to add, I plugged the reader and opened up FAP again last night, the AdBlue levels being reported still haven't moved despite me having put the 10L some time ago.

Not sure if that's a FAP issue or that the sensor is goosed but as mentioned above it certainly knew when I'd filled up again after the warning it was getting low.
Adblue does not affect FAP, that is what the EOLYS does. Adblue is injected somewhere in the exhaust system to reduce nitrogen oxide levels. The Adblue tank holds about 17L and lasts ~12,000 miles so it should use ~1.5 L per 1000 miles.

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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:30 am

routemaster1 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:35 pm
thetapeworm wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm
Just to add, I plugged the reader and opened up FAP again last night, the AdBlue levels being reported still haven't moved despite me having put the 10L some time ago.

Not sure if that's a FAP issue or that the sensor is goosed but as mentioned above it certainly knew when I'd filled up again after the warning it was getting low.
Adblue does not affect FAP, that is what the EOLYS does. Adblue is injected somewhere in the exhaust system to reduce nitrogen oxide levels. The Adblue tank holds about 17L and lasts ~12,000 miles so it should use ~1.5 L per 1000 miles.
Cheers, as you can see this stuff is all new to me, I need to do more reading on this.
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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by routemaster1 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:41 am

thetapeworm wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:30 am
routemaster1 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:35 pm
thetapeworm wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:59 pm
Just to add, I plugged the reader and opened up FAP again last night, the AdBlue levels being reported still haven't moved despite me having put the 10L some time ago.

Not sure if that's a FAP issue or that the sensor is goosed but as mentioned above it certainly knew when I'd filled up again after the warning it was getting low.
Adblue does not affect FAP, that is what the EOLYS does. Adblue is injected somewhere in the exhaust system to reduce nitrogen oxide levels. The Adblue tank holds about 17L and lasts ~12,000 miles so it should use ~1.5 L per 1000 miles.
Cheers, as you can see this stuff is all new to me, I need to do more reading on this.
I'm not surprised that people have difficulty getting to grips with this. When Adblue first appeared, the internet was full of talk of how Adblue would mean the end of EOLYS. Even Honest John wrote an article which was a total pile of rubbish. Having had 5 Citroens with EOLYS (and never had a problem), and being a member of the C4 forum for about 14 years, I have seen it all.

Here is a copy of the post I made on the C4 site.

Right, enough of this confusion. There is a load of rubbish written on the internet concerning Adblue and EOLYS, including much twaddle written by motoring journalists who obviously don't understand how cars work. I have read many times that Adblue replaces EOLYS., so I consulted the head technician and the parts manager at my local Citroen agent, and they both confirm that Adblue fitted cars also have the EOLYS system.

The Adblue is carried in a tank fitted near the fuel tank. It is injected into the exhaust system to convert nitrogen oxides. The tank has a capacity of ~17 litres, and will last for 12-14000 miles. It is easy, cheap and safe to top up the system at home. The filler is below the boot floor on C4Ps and below the offside 3rd row seat in C4GPs, although possibly later cars have the filler next to the diesel filler. There will be an alarm and a countdown displayed when the level gets low. Failure to top up will result in the car failing to start. A fill of 5L should be enough for the system to register and reset. THE Adblue HAS NO EFFECT ON THE DPF SYSTEM. (DPF = Diesel particle filter)

The EOLYS tank/pouch is under the car near the fuel tank. The EOLYS is a solution of curium compounds, and it is injected into the fuel. It then helps to catalytically oxidise the carbon particles in the DPF to carbon dioxide. The EOLYS is supposed to last 85-90000 miles, but our C3 has covered 115000 miles without topping up. There may be an alarm if the fluid pouch is empty, but I have never seen it. Failure of the system or running out of fluid may well result in the DPF clogging. I wouldn't want to change the fluid myself, but many have, but the counter must be reset using Lexia/Diagbox. Failure to reset will result in no fluid being injected and the risk of the DPF blocking.

I really hope I have explained everything clearly!

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Re: General Engine Dysfunction

Post by thetapeworm » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:11 pm

That's really useful, thanks.

I did a bit more reading earlier too, not to the point where I understand my specific issue any better sadly but I feel slightly more enlightened about things :)
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